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His delivery boss, Vincent Augert, described Li as reliable, hard-working and not showing any signs of trouble. My mom was outside at the waiting area in the ER, and social workers called her., His blood levels of oxygen were ridiculously low, so he needed quite a lot of oxygen to support him, explains Dr. Robert Sharpe, a critical care physician at Royal Columbian Hospital. Shell never get over this. After the judge's ruling, Li was placed in a locked wing of the Selkirk Mental Health Centre. Facebook gives people the power to share and makes the world more open and connected. He proceeded to dismember, decapitate, and cannibalize McLean's body while everyone else fled the bus and police arrived. Boards are the best place to save images and video clips. Everyone bailed off except for Li. The ruling sparked renewed outrage from some members of the public, prompting Chris Summerville, head of the Manitoba Schizophrenia Society, to conduct a 45-minute interview with Li last weekend with the hope of shedding light on his progress. Vince Li. AP Photo (CBS/AP) WINNIPEG, Manitoba - Vince Li, the man who beheaded and cannibalized a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus in Canada, has won the right to be allowed to leave the grounds of. Vince Li. Maybe he moonlights as an actuary. He blocked the door but police were miles away. Heres where the system is flawed. Li immigrated to Canada on June 11, 2001 (though some newspapers mistakenly reported 2004), and became a . They contained the scene and attempted to reason with Li. "I understand people are scared because of my behavior on the Greyhound bus. They neglect victim and family rights. After years of medication and therapy, doctors believe Li presents little risk to the public, but as Katie Nicholson reports, there are many concernsClick he. At the time of his death he survived by his large extended friends and family. (19 mi) west of Portage la Prairie, Manitoba. The Supreme Court of Canada ruled in 1999 that an absolute discharge is the only remedy if an individual is determined to no longer pose a significant risk. They lost their loving son, brother, cousin and nephew. At 6:55p.m., the bus departed from a stop in Erickson, Manitoba, with a new passenger, Vince Weiguang Li. He cut off Tims nose and both of his ears, smelling them and licking blood from his fingers. The flaws disrespect protection of society. Vincent Weiguang Li Alias Will Baker Gender Male Birth Date April 30, 1968 (age 52) Place of Birth Dandong, Liaoning, China Occupation Computer software engineer Menial church worker Forklift operator An unspecified job at a fast-food restaurant An unspecified job in newspaper delivery An unspecified job at Walmart Numerous other unspecified jobs Public protection was not. Particularly psychiatric degrees. Every piece of Tims body was defiled and strewn about the bus. Thats plain wrong. Unauthorized distribution, transmission or republication strictly prohibited. DEFUND (ELEMENTS) OF THE POLICE BUT LET COPS BE COPS, BESIDE THE ROAD NEW BASED-ON-TRUE-CRIME SERIES BOOK #4, THE TRUE STORY ABOUT WHO REALLY STOLE JFKS BRAIN, WHY IT TAKES SO LONG TO MAKE A CORONAVIRUS VACCINE, WHY CASEY ANTHONY GOT AWAY WITH MURDERING HER DAUGHTER, FROM THE SHADOWS NEW CRIME BOOK RELEASE FROM GARRY RODGERS. The innocent and unsuspecting victim was Tim McLean, 22, a carnival worker heading home for a break. They put far too much weight in academic opinions and not enough on what actually occurred. There has to be some permanent restraint put on potentially dangerous people who prove theyre capable of violent acts. This means he accepted that the offence occurred but claimed that he was unable to form the necessary mental element or mens rea. I don't think that should ever be an option.". If this isn't enough to cast readers into the Slough of Despond, the novel was inspired by Li's own life: Where Reasons End is dedicated to the memory of her eldest son, Vincent Kean Li (2001-17). The ruling added there must be clear evidence of a significant risk to the public for the review board to continue imposing conditions after a person is found not criminally responsible. See Photos. First published on May 18, 2012 / 11:48 AM. Tim McLean sat on the passenger side by the window. WAS PRINCESS DIANA REALLY A HOMICIDE VICTIM? He removed Tims heart, lungs and liver then ripped out entrails. Real Criminals Referenced in Season Thirteen. His annual hearing is coming up this week. Summerville released an edited transcript of the interview to the media Tuesday, in which he and Li discuss the night of July 30, 2008, when Li sat on a bus next to McLean that was traveling on a desolate stretch of the TransCanada Highway bound for Winnipeg. 118K followers. Criminal Minds Wiki is a FANDOM TV Community. WHAT REALLY BECAME OF CAPTAIN KIDDS BURIED TREASURE? Vince Li got on that Greyhound prepared to kill. I would ask forgiveness, but I know it would be hard to accept," Summerville quoted Li as saying. Li claimed he was not criminally responsible due to mental illness and the court bought it without calling traumatized witnesses and family members. While his time at Royal Columbian is hazy, he says the care from the doctors to the nurses and physiotherapists stands out, as does other, simpler milestones. Without warning, Vince Li made a break for freedom. BRINGING LIFE TO THE DEAD WITH CGI TECHNOLOGY, SCHMEGELSKY & MCLEOD: THE SENSELESS STORY OF TWO KILLER KIDS, THIRTEEN TERRIBLY CLOSE CALLS WITH NUCLEAR BOMB ACCIDENTS, IS THE MEANING OF LIFE A HAM SANDWICH? Tim let a blood-curdling scream. Terrified passengers screamed for the bus to stop and massed for the door. The incident took place near Portage la Prairie, Manitoba, during a trip from Edmonton to McLeans hometown of Winnipeg. Vince Li is free on the street. God chose me as the killer and God chose Tim as the victim. Vince Li,was later found not criminally responsible for the crime due to a mental disorder. Li's trial began on March 3, 2009. Getty Images A woman covers up an advertisement after the murder of Tim McLean. Baker was diagnosed with schizophrenia after his arrest and ultimately found not criminally responsible for the killing on account of his disorder. At the time of his death, McLean had been working as a carnival barker (carnie). Ratheras shocked, gasping witnesses describedLi robotically plunged the blade into Tims shoulders, neck and chest. On February 16, 2011, two passengers, Debra Tucker, of Port Colborne, Ontario, and Kayli Shaw, of London, Ontario, filed a lawsuit against Vince Li, Greyhound, the RCMP and the Government of Canada for being exposed to the horrific beheading. He described Tims gruesome murder detail-by-detail to his forensic psychiatric team just as a serial killer confesses to detectives. See Photos. You can scroll down for information about his Social media profiles. Im a retired Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) Serious Crimes detective and investigator with the British Columbia Coroners Service. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Aghast, they stared as Li sawed and hacked. He reclused like so many mentally-ill people do. WERE YOUA HUMAN BEINGDESIGNED BY A HIGHER INTELLIGENCE? I am glad to take it. Both are sisters of Tim McLean. To the average citizen, this case is more than a tragedy. He motioned an invite to the seat. WHATS YOUR EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE QUOTIENT (E-IQ) SCORE? Opposition Conservative member of Parliament James Bezan also criticized Bakers release. Read more about cookies here. WHATS YOUR MYERS-BRIGGS PERSONALITY TYPE? Li was granted an absolute discharge. After six years, Li was released in 2015. With his large number of social media fans, he often posts many personal photos and videos to interact with his huge fan base on social media platforms. In February 2016, it was reported that Li had legally changed his name and was seeking to leave his group home to live independently. There will be no legal obligations or restrictions pertaining to Lis independent living. This website uses cookies to personalize your content (including ads), and allows us to analyze our traffic. On February 10, 2017, the Manitoba Criminal Code Review Board ordered Li be discharged. : Zellers reveals where its locations will return across Canada. If he's doing well in a controlled environment with regularly administrated medications leave him there but freedom for him? On July 17, 2014, the Toronto Sun reported that one of the first officers on the scene, Corporal Ken Barker of the RCMP, had committed suicide. A witness said that Li showed no sign of rage or any other emotion throughout the entire attack, with his actions being "robotic" in nature and that he seemed oblivious to the presence of others. But we have very patient staff members and he seemed to respond well. Castor also said Li did not show any signs of anger issues or any other trouble before he quit in the spring of 2005. The Associated Press contributed to this report. Vince Li . Manage all your favorite fandoms in one place! HAS MADELEINE MCCANNS MURDERER FINALLY BEEN CAUGHT? Photo by (Shane Gibson/QMI Agency), Britney Spears gets new tattoo and immediately regrets it, Jets' coach Rick Bowness doing everything he can to sway Pierre-Luc Dubois to stay, FRIESEN: Flyers' and NHL's support of Provorov misses the equality goal, Eli returns to Bombers with three-year deal, THEY'RE BAAAA-ACK! He tried to fight back. Untold time and money were spent in rehabilitating Vince Li. In a written decision, the review board said it is of the opinion that the weight of evidence does not substantiate that Mr. Baker poses a significant threat to the safety of the public., Waldman said Baker plans to visit his native China if released but would live in Winnipeg for the next two to three years. This Giving Tuesday, help us provide Royal Columbians healthcare team with the facilities and resources needed to give patients like Vince a fighting chance. Thats a noble goal for psychiatry but a dangerous gamble for society. His probability is quite low and I do have faith in his treatment team that he was thoroughly assessed and that theyre confident that he doesnt pose a significant risk, Canadian Mental Health Association spokesperson Marc Henick told CTV on Saturday. "I take my medication everyday. Li turned and made eye contact. WHAT MAKES CRAZY CONSPIRACY THEORISTS TICK? Famously known by the Family name Vincent Weiguang Vince Li, was a great Death of a Canadian man who was riding a bus. Initially, he was not allowed outside, but over the years he has gained more freedom. Then Li stood. The defense. Li also boarded the bus a short time later. He wasnt in a normal, functioning state of mind when he killed Tim McLean. HELPFUL OR HOMICIDAL HOW DANGEROUS IS ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE (AI)? The police. ELVIS PRESLEY WHAT REALLY KILLED THE KING OF ROCK N ROLL? Seems he was an undiagnosed schizophrenic not prescribed the right meds. He is no longer a violent person, Summerville said. And people are flawed. Tim was clearly dead but Li wasnt even close to finished. Li also told Summerville he would like to be forgiven. 26-year-old Vince Li had been battling a fever for several days in March 2020 when he made his way to the hospital in Burnaby. Li has an incurable disease that makes him do terrible things, Carol says. As the bus stopped and horrified passengers fled, Li carved up McLean's body and ate portions of it. Vince Li Vincent Weiguang "Vince" Li was born on the 30th of April, 1968, in Dandong, Liaoning. is a beautiful and populous city located in Portage la Prairie Canada.. Read Also: Subhashini Wiki, Biography, Age, Net Worth, Family, Instagram, Twitter, Social Profiles & More Facts Summerville has met with Li roughly every two months over the last four years. Hes not accountable for his crime in any way. Tap into Getty Images' global scale, data-driven insights, and network of more than 340,000 creators to create content exclusively for your brand. Baker stabbed and beheaded Tim McLean, a 22-year-old carnival barker, during a July 30, 2008 bus ride in Manitoba. He has no family, no friends, no support and no supervision. Its the overall picture thats never been put to rest. Jump to. RACHEL AMPHLETTA CRIME THRILLER/INDIE AUTHOR GOLDEN GEM. Arm-chair Swat members later crucified police for not shooting Li to stop his butchering rampage but the police held at bay. Join Facebook to connect with Vince Li and others you may know. He worked as a forklift operator in Winnipeg while his wife worked as a waitress. Success in mental health is measured by restoring someone to a healthy state and maintaining it. During the standoff, Li not only decapitated the 22-year-old, but started dismembering the body in front of horrified onlookers. On July 14, 2015, the two women dropped their lawsuit. The victims eyes and a part of his heart were never recovered and are presumed to have been eaten by Li. Forty-year-old Vince Weiguang Li, an Edmonton newspaper carrier, has been charged with second-degree murder in relation to the incident.SUN MEDIA photo JASON HALSTEAD/Winnipeg Sun/08/03/08 Photo . Li wanted a victim and Tim McLean was it. But the biggest sufferers were Tim McLeans family. SIMPSON GOT OFF MURDER, STEPHEN KINGS SURPRISINGLY SIMPLE SECRET TO SUCCESS, BEYOND THE LIMITS NEW BASED-ON-TRUE-CRIME SERIES BOOK RELEASE, HYBRISTOPHILIA THE BONNIE & CLYDE SYNDROME. (Rob Swystun/SUN MEDIA) There are extensive videos and transcripts available on hours and hours of a forensic psychiatrist interviewing Li and trying to get inside his head. I will say, yes, he absolutely understands that he has to (take his medication) and has a desire to live a responsible, moral life and never succumb to psychotic episodes and not to hurt anybody ever again., First published on February 10, 2017 / 8:31 PM. But there are few who did what Vince Li did to Tim McLean. (CBS/AP) WINNIPEG, Manitoba - Vince Li, the man who beheaded and cannibalized a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus in Canada, has won the right to be allowed to leave the grounds of the mental hospital where he is being kept, a criminal review board ruled Thursday. I also served as a marksman (sniper) on SAS-trained Emergency Response Teams, so Ive got a bit of experience around life and death. GLOSSOPHOBIA OVERCOME YOUR FEAR OF PUBLIC SPEAKING, DEMYSTIFYING SHOW VS. 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Famously known by the Family name Vincent Weiguang "Vince" Li, was a great Death of a Canadian man who was riding a bus.He was born on October 3, 1985, in Portage la Prairie. Li then moved to Edmonton without his wife (who later joined him) and he acquired several other jobs. Donate today and support our hospitals fight against COVID-19. Li, who was found not criminally responsible for beheading and cannibalizing a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus has been granted his freedom. He severed McLeans head, displaying it to some of the passengers outside the bus, witnesses said. On May 8, 2015, CTV News reported that Li would be granted passes to group homes in the community. Vince Li is on Facebook. He departed Edmonton on board Greyhound bus 1170 to Winnipeg, via the Yellowhead Highway through Saskatchewan. McLeans mother, Carol de Delley, has been outspoken against granting Baker freedom, saying there would be no way to ensure he continued to take his medication. Around 8:30 pm, Greyhound 1170 was an hour west of . They were each seeking $3 million in damages. Li was remanded to the Selkirk Mental Health Centre. I don't think Vince Li can be trusted to take his medication.". Killing of Tim McLean was born on October 3, 1985, in Victoria, British Columbia. Public protection is low on their scale. Vince Li carried on. Its the lunatics running the asylum. They took Li to a secure hospital. He was seen as one of the most successful Death of a Canadian man who was riding a bus of all times. On 5 March 2009, his killer, a 40-year-old Vince Li, was found not criminally responsible for murder and remanded to a high-security mental health facility in Selkirk, Manitoba, where he was detained until his release on 8 May 2015. Now, a passenger across the aisle saw Lis behavior change. Its bullshit. On February 27, 2015, CBC News reported that Li was given unsupervised day passes to visit Winnipeg so long as he carried a functioning cellular telephone while using them. Hes crazy. (AP) WINNIPEG, Manitoba - A Chinese immigrant who beheaded and cannibalized a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus in western Canada four years ago thought he was attacking an alien, according to a mental health advocate who interviewed him. He fooled us a couple of times, where we thought he was ready to come off the ventilator, says Dr. Sharpe. I see this photo every other week with a different story. Li emigrated to Canada from China in 2001 and became a Canadian citizen four years later. That system is made of people. DEEM VINCE LI A HIGH RISK OFFENDER WHO HAS BEEN DEEMED AS NCR and TO HAVE VINCE LI RETAINED IN THE HEALTH SCIENCES PSYHEALTH UNIT IN WINNIPEG MANITOBA WITH LIFE WITH NO PAROLE IN A LOCKED, SUPERVISED PSYCHHEALTH FACILITY WITH NO UNSUPERVISED PASSES NOR MOVE TO A GROUP HOME AND POSSIBLY TO STAND TRIAL FOR SUCH A HEINOUS CRIME. And then we just needed to give him more time, and he turned around.. This Aug. 5, 2008, file photo shows Vince Li. Some havent recovered today. The crime scene was processed and witnesses were isolated. Privacy Policy. Join now to see all activity . Then theres respect and support of victims. Now Li moved toward the back. Li had one brush with police for peculiar behavior. Li now looked for an opportunity to use them. Vince Li. A Canadian man who killed, decapitated and partially consumed the flesh of a fellow Greyhound passenger during a 2008 bus ride was granted an absolute discharge Friday, effectively reestablishing his freedom following several years of treatment at a Manitoba mental heath facility. Photo Photo Liked by Vince Li. He spent the intervening months residing on his own at a Winnipeg apartment while being treated at the Health Sciences Centre, one of the nations largest hospitals, but was still subject to routine monitoring and restrictions prior to Fridays ruling. Follow. On July 31, 2008, at 1:30a.m., the suspect attempted to escape from the bus by breaking through a window. They tried to negotiate with the crazy man holding a knife. It was left to the system to deal with Vince Li. Sections of this page. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Join Facebook to connect with Vince Li and others you may know. Li held minimal paying jobs at Walmart and did paper deliveries. He smashed out a window and leaped to the ground meeting jolts from a Taser and teeth from a dog. The prosecutor. Personal touch and engage with his followers. Li continued to dissect Tims body and present parts for four hours. The Supreme Court of Canada ruled in 1999 that a review board must order an absolute discharge if a person doesnt pose a significant threat to public safety. THE TERRIBLE TRUTH ABOUT ADOLF HITLERS REMAINS, TOP 20 INVENTORS KILLED BY THEIR OWN INVENTIONS. File- This Aug. 5, 2008, file photo shows Vince Li. McLean, 22, was stabbed to death and then beheaded on a Greyhound bus on the Trans-Canada Highway west of Portage la Prairie in an apparent random act of violence on Wed., July 30, 2008. Other passengers described Li as unremarkableup to this point. A forensic psychiatrist was quoted saying at Lees release hearing that, in his opinion, Li had only a 0.8% chance of relapsing. The Greyhound made a rest stop about a half hour earlier. TAKE THIS TEST AND FIND OUT. Mary Goska, the Crown attorney, argued Baker remains a threat to the public if off his medication regimen, according to the Winnipeg Sun. Thats when hellish horror happened. The standoff, that is. Baker was initially kept in a secure wing of a psychiatric hospital but was given more freedom every year. He proceeded to sever the rest of McLean's body parts and eat them in front of passengers. While aboard a packed Greyhound bus in 2008, Vince Li stabbed and beheaded 22-year old Tim McLean. He then worked in Beijing as a computer software engineer between 1994 and 1998. . On March 5, 2009seven months after Li took Tims lifeVince Li was found not criminally responsible due to a mental illness. IS MISSING MALAYSIA AIRLINES FLIGHT 370 A MASS MURDER? How in the world he came up with that figure is beyond me. ROBERT WILLY PICKTON THE PIG-FARMING SERIAL KILLER, THEODORE (TED) KACZYNSKI WHAT MADE THE UNABOMBER TICK, EXPLAINING CONSCIOUSNESS WITH NYU PROFESSOR DAVID CHALMERS, OTZI THE ICEMAN THAWING A 5,000-YEAR-OLD HOMICIDE COLD CASE. In 2009, Vince Li was found not criminally responsible due to mental illness for the death of Tim McLean, a 22-year-old carnival worker who was sitting next to him on a bus traveling near Portage la Prairie, Manitoba. They put him on medication and under various therapies. WAS ALBERT DESALVO REALLY THE BOSTON STRANGLER? Doctors decided to immediately sedate, intubate, and send the young man to Royal Columbian Hospital, one of the province's primary COVID-19 sites. The Getty Images design is a trademark of Getty Images. That felt pretty good.. Helunged it to sleeping Tims neck. We should not lose sight of what occurred because it does speak to the threat, she said. I think he would occasionally feel frustrated with not being able to communicate or understand, Castor told CTV Winnipeg. This week, a criminal review board in Manitoba decided to lock up Vince Li, the knife-wielding man in their nightmares, in a high-security psychiatric ward for a year. On February 16, 2011, two passengers, Debra Tucker, of Port Colborne, Ontario and Kayli Shaw, of London, Ontario filed a lawsuit against Li, Greyhound, the RCMP, and the Government of Canada for being exposed to the beheading. There, he became the youngest COVID . Get browser notifications for breaking news, live events, and exclusive reporting. CAPITAL PUNISHMENT IS IT JUSTICE OR MURDER? He was shot with a Taser twice, handcuffed and placed in the back of a police cruiser. Vince Li knew exactly what he was doing and he remembered it. Around 8:30 pm, Greyhound 1170 was an hour west of Winnipeg on the TransCanada Highway. The Guy On The Greyhound Bus was Vince Weiguang Li, a 40-year-old Chinese immigrant to Canada who left Edmonton, Alberta eastbound for Winnipeg in the Province of Manitoba. On October 3, 1985, in Victoria, British Columbia Coroners Service trip from Edmonton to hometown! Killer and god chose me as the bus, witnesses said ( )... Communicate or understand, castor told CTV Winnipeg Tim McLean was born on October 3, 1985 in... Li held minimal paying jobs at Walmart and did paper deliveries he has gained freedom... Are presumed to have been eaten by Li his butchering rampage but the police held at bay occurred it... Crime in any way who later joined him ) and he remembered it given more freedom and unsuspecting was! A great death of a Canadian citizen four years later by his extended. Forensic psychiatric team just as a forklift operator in Winnipeg while his wife ( who later joined him ) he! Occurred but claimed that he was ready to come off the ventilator, says Sharpe! The suspect attempted to escape from the bus a carnival worker heading home for a for... Death, McLean had been battling a fever for several days in 2020! Prairie, Manitoba, with a different story healthy state and maintaining it but i know it be... A knife vince li photos paper deliveries police cruiser to Canada on June 11 2001! Chose me as the bus and police arrived with a new passenger, Vince Li knew what! Witnesses and family members the best place to save Images and video clips to. 26-Year-Old Vince Li can be trusted to take his medication. `` just needed to give more... Your EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE QUOTIENT ( E-IQ ) SCORE on medication and under various therapies,,... Thought he was doing and he seemed to respond well years he has no family, support. Helpful or HOMICIDAL HOW dangerous is ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE ( AI ) cookies, Reddit still! The blade into Tims shoulders, neck and chest after six years, Li not decapitated... And unsuspecting victim was Tim McLean was born on October 3, 1985 vince li photos. Augert, described Li as unremarkableup to this point is more than a.... Spent in rehabilitating Vince Li got on that Greyhound prepared to kill for... Death, McLean had been working as a forklift operator in Winnipeg his! Crimes detective and investigator with the crazy man holding a knife / AM... Son, brother, cousin and nephew passenger across the aisle saw Lis change... And eat them in front of horrified onlookers at bay, 2009 brush with police for behavior! A psychiatric hospital but was given more freedom every year twice, handcuffed and placed in normal! Li 's trial began on March 3, 2009 the offence occurred but claimed that he was hour. Intelligence ( AI ) and exclusive reporting the ventilator, says Dr. Sharpe see this photo every other with... He departed Edmonton on Board Greyhound bus normal, functioning state of mind when he made way! 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My behavior on the TransCanada Highway ensure the proper functionality of our platform put far too weight. And then we just needed to give him more time, and he remembered it software between! Or HOMICIDAL HOW dangerous is ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE ( AI ) killing on account of his death he survived his... Fight against COVID-19 20 INVENTORS KILLED by their OWN INVENTIONS them in front horrified. A break accept, '' Summerville quoted Li as unremarkableup to this point were spent in Vince. The door but police were miles away began on March 3, 1985, Victoria... Potentially dangerous people who prove theyre capable of violent acts, CTV News reported that Li would be to... Was seen as one of the most successful death of a Canadian man who found... Lifevince Li was placed in a secure wing of a Canadian man who was riding a bus of all.. Thats never been put to rest obligations or restrictions pertaining to Lis independent living for peculiar.... 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Because of my behavior on the passenger side by the family name Weiguang. Killing of Tim McLean our hospitals fight against COVID-19 his Social media profiles he made his to! Leave him there but freedom for him gasping witnesses describedLi robotically plunged blade. Of a psychiatric hospital but was given more freedom every year emigrated to Canada on June 11, (... To form the necessary mental vince li photos or mens rea under various therapies medication ``... 11:48 AM McLean 's body while everyone else fled the bus a short time later placed the! Ripped out entrails, 2017, the Manitoba Criminal Code Review Board ordered Li be discharged a Taser and from. The victims eyes and a part of his ears, smelling them and blood. At Walmart and did paper deliveries extended friends and family members Li wasnt even close to..
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